Fifty nine years ago, 18 May 1944, by order of the former Soviet leadership the whole Crimean Tatar people was deported from Crimea. In accordance with official information, already in the first years of deportation about one third of all the Crimean Tatars perished. Up to April of 1956 all the Crimean Tatars remained in the category of "special commandant's regime" and were obliged to register themselves monthly at a special commandant's office. Any one leaving a settlement without approval by the commandant, to which each Crimean Tatar was attached, was punished by 20 years of hard labour. Each activity of a special settler, including visit of relatives in neighbouring settlements or burial of dead persons, couldn't be made without permission. Annually, on May 18, Crimean Tatars, who were dispersed all over the world, are gathering at funeral meetings. In the former USSR participation in such meetings was cruelly punished bey authority. But in spite of total repressions, Crimean Tatars during that period were gathering in places of exile at cemeteries, where were buried tens of thousands of innocent persons, who died in a foreign country. After a prayer in memory of victims of deportation, Crimean Tatars went bey columns to the center of those settlements, where they were kept in that time. To prevent the meetings the authorities often used exceptional militia, also soldiers. This took place in Tashkent, Samarkand, Yangiyul, Chirchik and many other places in Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, and Tajikistan Beginning from 1968 such meetings took place in Crimea as well. Namely, on this day hundreds of Crimean Tatars tried to come to Simferopol in spite of all obstacles from the hand of authority, not only to pay memory of the victims of the deportation from Crimea, from which they were deported by force, but also to demonstrate a struggle of the Crimean Tatar people for the right to return to their own Motherland and for restoration of violated rights. The meetings, which were held in Crimea in that period, were broken up by authorities in the most brutal ways in order so nobody was able to doubt that Crimean Tatars have no place on their own land. Time changed. The Soviet Empire failed, and peoples enslaved by Communists obtained their own freedom. During independence of Ukraine over 250,000 Crimean Tatars returned to their Motherland. However, thousands of Crimean Tatars still remain in places of deportation, who are not able to return to their own lands without assistance, and they wait for assistance. At the same times, those who have already settled in Crimea, have a lot of problems connected with resettlement, job and land allotments. On May 18, 2003 at an all-Crimean funeral meeting in memory of victims of deportation of the Crimean Tatar people, which gathered about 25,000 persons in the center of Simferopol, its participants adopted an appeal, in which they called on the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine to consider and adopt the Law on restoration of rights of the Crimean Tatar people by May of next year - the 60th Anniversary of the deportation - and on the President of Ukraine and Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine - to give assistance in every way. The participants of the meeting stated that a lack of basic law directed toward the full restoration of political, economical and cultural rights of the Crimean Tatar people, not only preserves a lot of the consequences of the criminal deportation of 18 May 1944, but also often results in further ignorance of interests and new violations of the rights of the repatriates. The head of the Mejlis of the Crimean Tatar people, Mustafa Dzhemilev, addressing a mass meeting stated that "there cannot be any justification to legally fixed process of dispossession of land of Crimean Tatars, opposition of opening of schools with teaching in Crimean Tatar, refusal to fix a status of Crimean Tatar as one of the official languages and return historical toponymy, inequality in attitude of governmental bodies of Crimea towards believers of different religious confessions, discrimination during hiring for public service, and biased attitude of law-enforcement bodies towards Crimean Tatars". In the resolution adopted by the meeting it was noted that a particular concern is caused by the proposed political reform in Ukraine which doesn't provide for the removal of obstacles, which were earlier fixed in the Constitution of the ARC and some laws of Ukraine, which don't permit the equal representation for Crimean Tatars in bodies of representative and executive power of the ARC. Also taking part in the all-Crimean meeting dedicated to victims of deportation of the Crimean Tatar people were the Head of the Council of Ministers of the ARC S. Kunitsin, deputies Head of Verkhovna Rada of the ARC V. Kiselyov and I. Umerov, Permanent Representative of the President of Ukraine in the ARC O.Dydenko, head of Committee of Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine on human rights, national minorities and interethnic relations H. Udovenko, deputy Head of National RUKH of Ukraine, people’s deputy of Ukraine V.Koval, representatives of Crimean Tatar Diaspora from Poland, Russia, Rumania and Turkey, including national-cultural associations of Crimea. We give below a text of the Appeal of the All-Crimean funeral meeting, which was held on May 18, 2003, and dedicated to the memory of the victims of the deportation of the Crimean Tatar people. At the same time, we give for attention of our readers a stenogram of a radio broadcast in open air on "Public radio" from 16 May 2003, dedicated to deportation of the Crimean Tatar people, in which took part people's deputies of Ukraine Leonid Hrach, Refat Chubarov, and including a journalist, Roman Skrypnyk. To our opinion, a publication of the text of this radio dialogue, in which the participants express radically opposite estimations concerning events of the recent past, can lead the reader himself to find answers to the question: "Who is guilty in mass crimes of entire peoples during Soviet period?". Appeal 18 May 2003, Simferopol We, participants of all-Crimean funeral meeting dedicated to the memory of victims of deportation of the Crimean Tatar people are proceeding from ideals of humanism and justice, and asserting the indisputable Crimean Tatar people's right for full restoration of rights in their own Motherland, on the day of the 59th Anniversary of the deportation apply to citizens of Ukraine and the world community with this appeal. The deportation of 18 May 1944 and next decade of forcible confinement in places of deportation aimed to exterminate the Crimean Tatar nation. During the criminal deportation and in the first years of exile more than a third part of the total number of Crimean Tatars died of starvation, cold and humiliation. The bodies of government of the former USSR to completely accomplish their own criminal intentions for 45 years took special measures directed on non-admission of return of Crimean Tatars to their own Motherland. Every Crimean Tatar family suffered from the open terror and violence from the hand of the state. The particular burden was suffered by thousands of activists of the Crimean Tatar National Movement of different generations; a lot of them didn't live to see bright days of return to their own Motherland. Currently, we bow our heads before memory of the victims of the deportation of the Crimean Tatar people and express gratitude for courage and firmness of activists of the National Movement, who fought during many years for return to the Motherland and restoration of its rights. Crimes against the Crimean Tatar people and its lawless situation in the USSR during decades were not simply concealed, but they were officially denied by the Communist's regime of the USSR. Their reasons, character, mechanism of organization and scales of victims were industriously concealed not only from society, but also from some generations of peoples of the USSR. A deception and slander about Crimean Tatar people, for decades was implanted in public consciousness, and was a part of state policy of the regime of the USSR. Consequences of this misanthropic policy we feel and now from the hand of those forces, which still try to justify the criminal action of 18 May 1944 and prevent the full restoration of rights of people at their own Motherland. We express also special thanks to those courageous people, who in the former USSR, and outside promoted actively to spread of truth on the tragedy of the Crimean Tatar people and assisted in its fearless struggle for return to the Motherland. The Crimean Tatar people further will preserve a grateful memory for each of those people. A special role in understanding of Crimean Tatar problem by the world community belongs to Crimean Tatar Diaspora in different states. Mass return of Crimean Tatar people to their own Motherland, which started on the eve of the dissolution of the USSR, coincided with the formation of the independent Ukraine. Namely, in these years began to come out a truth about the terrible crimes, which were committed by regime of the USSR against the Crimean Tatar people and other peoples. Currently, one can speak with confidence that those words played a significant role in understanding by society of Ukraine the pain and hopes of indigenous people of Crimea, who return to the Motherland. The Crimean Tatar people appreciates this understanding and support strongly the aspiration of the Ukrainian nation to establishment of an independent, democratic state. At the same time, we state that in the conditions of independent Ukraine there remain a lot of unsolved problems, which have priority significance for future Crimean Tatar people and development of Ukraine, as a democratic and legal state. In Ukraine, a basic law was not yet adopted directed on full restoration of political, economical and cultural rights of the Crimean Tatar people. A lack of such law not only preserves the consequences of the criminal law of 18 May 1944, but also results in new violations of rights of Crimean Tatars. The list of injustices towards the Crimean Tatar people which remain and again appear is unjustifiedly wide and includes different areas of vital activity of Crimean Tatars. It is impossible to justify the legally fixed process of dispossession of land of Crimean Tatars, opposition to opening of schools with teaching in Crimean Tatar, refusal in fixing the status of Crimean Tatar as one of the official languages on the territory of Crimea, refusal in return of historical toponomy, inequality in relations of governmental bodies of autonomy with believers of different confessions, discrimination in hiring for public service, and biased attitude of law-enforcement towards Crimean Tatars. We have special concern that the proposed political reform in Ukraine doesn't provide for removal of obstacles, which were earlier fixed in the Constitution of the ARC and a number of laws of Ukraine, which render impossible equal representation of Crimean Tatars in bodies of representative and executive power of the ARC. Understanding the complexity of the processes for local development of Ukraine, and differences in approaches of political forces to the tragic events of the recent past, we, participants of All-Crimean funeral meeting dedicated to memory of victims of deportation of the Crimean Tatar people of 18 May 1944, nevertheless, demand that the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine adopt the Law of Ukraine "On restoration of rights of the Crimean Tatar people" by May 2004 - the 60th Anniversary of the deportation of the Crimean Tatar people. We apply also to the President of Ukraine and Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine to take all necessary measures that the independent Ukrainian state by adoption of Law "On resoration of rights of the Crimean Tatar people", would demonstrate on the eve of the 60th Anniversary a broad attention to one of the indigenous peoples of Ukraine. We demand from authority of autonomy to remove from the territory of Crimea the names of tsar's and communist's figures, who were connected with crimes against Crimean Tatar people and to adopt the decision on building of a memorial for victims of deportation of 1944 at the central square in Simferopol. Adopted Took part: 25 000 persons Stenogram Kyiv, 16 May 2002 (Interlocutors: people's deputies of Ukraine Leonid Hrach and Refat Chubarov. Roman Skripyn: Good evening. Wednesday. And I, Roman Skripyn, work on the air for us as always every Wednesday. You hear joint project of 'Public radio" and radio "Kontinent". Today, we talk about the 59th Anniversary of the deportation of the Crimean Tatars. Annually, really something latter - 18 May, we talk about this date before 18 May, under decision of Verkhovna Rada of the ARC, which was yet adopted in 1994, as day of memory of victims of deportation. In Crimea already returned about 250,000 Crimean Tatars. Today, “Public radio” will talk about reasons of deportation by Soviet power, how much Tatars and other peoples were deported, what kind of problems are faced now by repatriates to the Motherland. The most interesting thing that today we have two guests and already the personnel themselves are quite interesting. Certainly, from Crimean Tatars is Refat Chubarov - people's deputy of bloc “Nasha Ukraina”, deputy head of Mejlis of the Crimean Tatar people. Good evening, Mr. Refat. Refat Chubarov: Good evening everybody. Roman Skripyn: From other hand, Leonid Hrach - people's deputy of faction of Communist party of Ukraine, member of Committee on struggle against organized criminality and corruption. Mr. Hrach was once a head of parliament of the autonomy. Leonid Hrach: Good evening everybody Roman Skripyn: Good evening, Mr. Leonid. Roman Skripyn: I remind hearers that we want to hear you on our air and you can call us bey telephone numbers - 451-58-03 and 451-71-19. Call us, ask or express your own opinion. I remind that you hear joint project of “Public radio” and radio “Kontinent” – evening informational program. The guests of this program, I remind you again: Refat Chubarov - people's deputy of bloc “Nasha Ukraina”, deputy head of Mejlis of the Crimean Tatar people and Leonid Hrach - people's deputy of faction of Communist Party of Ukraine, member of Committee on struggle against organized criminality and corruption. And, Mr. Leonid, You are, as I understand to simply formulate - the main communist of Crimea. Leonid Hrach: If you like it, I have no objections. Roman Skripyn: I would like to be more exact, what is the exact title of your post? Leonid Hrach: First Secretary of Republican Committee of Party. Roman Skripyn: First secretary of Republican Committee of Communist Party of Ukraine. Leonid Hrach: No, Crimean Republican Committee. Roman Skripyn: Crimean Republican Committee Leonid Hrach: This is Republican Committee of Communist Party of Ukraine - this is Central Committee... Roman Skripyn: Let's start. First question concerns you both, why up to now, if I don't make a mistake, we were not able to see you both, at the same time, in public discussion on TV or radio? Speak Refat Chubarov. Refat Chubarov: There was such a period. We have appeared in Crimean Mass Media. I think last time it took place was two years ago, when we took part together in program of “Radio Svoboda”, but Mr. L. Hrach was in that moment in his office in Crimea, being a head of Crimean Parliament, and I was here in Kyiv’s studio “Radio Svoboda” and we were participants of the program. Leonid Hrach: You are really right, that we are first together with Refat Abdurakhmanovich in same studio of “Public Radio”. Roman Skripyn: You know, all attempts, I share my experience, to invite you together in studio, were failed. There was refusal on the one hand, or on the other hand. Nevertheless, I appreciate very much that you agreed. Leonid Hrach: No, no I ask to make more exact, when... Roman Skripyn: You know the rich journalist's experience shows that there were such attempts, but I appreciate very much that you came today in same studio and we talk. Leonid Hrach: When you proposed this to me today, I gave at once my consent, and I think Refat Chubarov as well. I would like that we gave correct information. Roman Skripyn: Super. May be. Second question concerns subject of program; is whether there such thing, as Crimean Tatar question? Leonid Hrach: Undoubtedly. We are all united in concern about this matter - as Crimean Tatars, as persons of other nationalities, that 59 years ago one really committed a tragedy. Really, in that period, was adopted the absolutely illegal, groundless decision towards the entire people. Though, as with any people, as Crimean Tatars, as Ukrainians, as Russians, as others there were and are their own scoundrels. And certainly, it offended very much all, first of all Crimean Tatars, who went to Berlin, among Crimean Tatars there are such persons, who live now, latter, after the Great Victory have tried to return to Crimea, and were removed by transit to the Middle Asia. In that we are united, undoubtedly. Refat Chubarov: I think if we speak about events, which took place 59 years ago, we are to speak about the crime, which was committed by the State. If we speak about the total deportation of the Crimean Tatar people, that we are to understand that it is qualified as genocide under international law, it was ethnical cleaning. The peninsula was cleaned by authority, State from its indigenous people. Roman Skripyn: Let's delve slightly into deep history, the hearers would like also to know a historical truth, I think. Why were Crimean Tatars deported? Who is guilty? Leonid Hrach: The matter concerns not only Crimea Tatars, because from Crimea were deported, partially, Germans, Greeks, Bulgarians, Armenians and Crimean Tatars. The matter concerns that at that moment there was such an estimation. One can today give a different estimation; there is here a tautology, that there was such estimation that a part of Crimean Tatars were accomplices of German-Fascist occupants. And in addition those other five representatives of peoples, whom I mentioned. And not only them, besides, if we speak about this historical page, it was really a tragical page of our history. It concerned, one can say, in the Northern Caucasia those Chechenians and also Turks-Meskhetians to list additionally others. This is one of those reasons, which induced in the present case the Soviet leadership, including Joseph Stalin, to adopt such decision. Refat Chubarov: Here I would like to say that for Soviet regime there were deportations of different forms, there were deportations, about it we spoke as in case with Crimean Tatar people, total, that is when the people was totally deported from its territory. However, there were deportations of separate parts, separate peoples, one says Armenians from territory of modern Ukraine were deported only from Crimea, from other territories they were not deported. Germans really were deported from whole territory of Ukraine. But, speaking about different possible factors of deportation, I want to say that accusation in betrayal was one of the causes for the authority. There were yet "prejudices in betrayal", one says about Germans of Volga region. There was yet a necessity of "strengthening' of boundary territories, as Koreans or Ingermans, now this is Leningrad oblast, or Koreans - this is at Chinese boundary. That is the authority, when wanted to exterminate that or other people or any its part, it always found a cause. Roman Skripyn: Such question, other part of question - who is guilty? The deportation took place. Refat Chubarov: Tell me please, when we talk about the period of fascism and crimes of fascists, whom are we accusing? The fascist's regime and fascist's ideology. This is the answer to your question. The communist's regime and communist's ideology is guilty, because they justified such actions towards such a great number of people. Leonid Hrach: I absolutely don't agree with Refat Abdurakhmanovich, moreover, in such comparison - fascism and communism. Moreover, he was a Communist himself yet 10 years ago. I wouldn't like today to lead our conversation in this ideological niche, because if we enter in it, we can forget that is mournful date. This is first, that I would like to say. Secondly. Actually, this is a multi-aspect problem In that period the state in the form of its state bodies, including Council of People's Commissars, adopted such decision, and all of us today say that is tragical decision, wrong decision, but I would like to note another side of this problem: if to move by this way, [that] fascism drove into Osventsim, and Soviet power nevertheless, in any case, didn't desert deportees, including Crimean Tatars. Yes, there were heavy conditions in the Middle Asia, also in first time, curfew and many others. Nevertheless, the Soviet power taught, treated, fed, and gave an opportunity to work for everybody. The one thing, that took place until 1987, to known, first of all, political, then state decisions - the prohibition to settle in Crimea. By the way, I know this problem not only in post-soviet period. I know it well from Soviet period, because this problem, the Crimean Tatar problem in principle, and in particular, a return of them in 1987, I met being secretary of Crimean Oblast Committee of Communist Party, and I am personally involved with these problems from the beginning to the end, from archives to meeting with all, including trips to Middle Asia. Besides, I am the only secretary of Oblast Committee of Communist Party, who went to Crimean Tatars during events in Fergana, and met, spoke and so on. On subjects… Roman Skripyn: Mr. Leonid, your argumentation is understandable, nevertheless: who is guilty? Refat Chubarov: I don't want, strictly speaking, purposely to dramatize something or turn to anti-arguments, in present case my opponent Leonid Hrach. I took specially with me very much archival documents, thankfully there is today such opportunity, and I could to appeal with them, but imagine yourself: “a person says, anyway there are a lot of opponents: “it was not so terrible, ones were killed or burnt in Osventsim, and others were deported from part of territory of our common state to other part”. Hear, what [reported] NKVD in 1944: this is October; they intercepted letters, which Crimean Tatars wrote each other. Now I read from document of NKVD - “Asan Ilyasov is informed his kinswoman Ablayeva: “…from in our village 26 persons died, also in other villages, soon probably all of us die. I send a list of died persons…” Further are counted all of these 26 persons. [Further I cite]: “The other day Asanova Zeynep died,… they, certainly, died from starvation, Fatma and Zore also died father and mother, remained only children. If before we were provided by rice, that now they don’t give it. Khatidje Refatova informs that under information, which circulate among people, who were exiled to Samarkand oblast, already were died about 70,000 persons”. This is information of NKVD. Roman Skripyn: I propose to return to the questions I posed latter. I want to remind our hearers that today in our studio there are Refat Chubarov - people’s deputy of bloc “Nasha Ukraina” (Our Ukraine), deputy head of Mejlis of the Crimean Tatar people and Leonid Hrach - people’s deputy of faction of Communist Party of Ukraine, member of Committee on struggle against organized criminality and corruption and first secretary of Crimean Republican Committee of Communist Party of Ukraine. We would like that you call us. I remind that you hear the evening informational program, joint project “Public radio” and radio “Kontinent”. The telephone numbers 451-58-03 ?? 451-71-19, through which you can join to our conversation with Mr. Chubarov and Mr. Hrach. Who is guilty nevertheless? I remind that we talk about 59th anniversary of deportation of Crimean Tatars. And I would like to come back to this question, after which we can continue our discussion, and again ask Mr. Hrach. Who is guilty? As I heard from Mr. Chubarov sufficiently clear answer. I would like to hear you as well. Leonid Hrach: I think - time, first of all. Secondly, the consequences of the Great Patriotic War. And, certainly, a leadership of that period is guilty, who, I stress once more, instead of separating out those, who were betrayers, from Crimean Tatar people, including Armenians, Bulgarians, Greeks and Germans, in order that they be given an appropriate penalty, if they betrayed Motherland. But I would like to speak about other things. It is allowed to bring a pain from generation to generation, and it is now brought from generation to generation. One cannot live with pain looking at future. I remembered my own meeting, one of the first ones, in settlement Yangiyul near Tashkent, when in 1987 I, First as secretary of Crimean Oblast Committee of Party, arrived for this meeting. I was met by Crimean Tatars, children, old men, and women, gathered round and scanned in Crimean Tatar: “Stalin, Stalin”. I tried to begin dialogue, but I failed. Latter I at last asked them, which answer how everybody: “When you were deported - Stalin and now is apprehended by Crimean Tatars as soviet power, and certainly, “Stalin” - they have common noun towards this person. I asked them: “When Stalin deported Crimean Tatars?” - “In 1944”. Then I answered them: “I was born in 1948, and I am not going to be responsible for him, I want to live by this day”. Today, it is necessary to solve present problems - return and resettlement, and live in peace and friendship. This is a second principal part, which for us today and for me at least, is the most important thing. Roman Skripyn: Thank you for your answer. Refat Chubarov: I would like to agree with Mr. Hrach. I would like to agree that one cannot always live with any pain, but I want to say that it is impossible to cure pain, if we don’t say a truth, and the main thing - don’t make it so as to repeat those crimes, which were (committed) towards peoples. I would like nevertheless that we understand very well, that not only Crimean Tatars were deported, but I have more pain for Crimean Tatars, because this is my people, but were deported also tens of other peoples. Many thousands persons from the West Ukraine were deported. Let’s imagine for a minute and stand on the position, [that was said] Crimean Tatars betrayed Soviet Motherland, but what did those people, what did Christians, who were thrown out also by tens thousand? I want that we don’t dramatize, but nevertheless to find answer - it is impossible that only one person is guilty. I finish. I understand that Mr. Hrach was born after death of satrap1, but there are now documents, [protocols] of meetings of Politburo, already Gorbachev, as one says there are expressions of Gromiko and their plans to not admit Crimean Tatars. It was 1987, where were we in that period? Roman Skripyn: I simply would like to say, I cannot interrupt, but let’s to respect hearers, we have a hearer, let’s to hear his question. Hallo, speak please. Good evening. Speak. Radio listener: I would like to ask Refat Chubarov. Generally one says that Crimean Tatar population in Crimea is indigenous. May be, you don’t know well Ukrainian history. Crimean Tatar “people”, came as occupant in Crimea, and may be it suffered, as one says from sword. Thank you. Refat Chubarov: I thank you very much and respect that level of knowledge, which you showed now. I would like to repeat for you and other audience that Crimean Tatar people is the indigenous people of Crimea. Roman Skripyn: Thank you for answer on question, nevertheless we come back to continuation of previous subject: “Who is guilty?” We heard a position of both quests of today’s program. Next question: Should not a guilty person to redeem one's fault make a public apology? I don’t mean Stalin, who never redeems his fault. I mean that ideology, which managed Stalin, or Stalin managed this ideology. I mean communism. Leonid Hrach: I think you are categorically wrong, when you try the communist ideology no, just a moment, I answer on your question. It is polemic and even absolutely with accusatory emphasis. In no circumstances one should connect communist ideology with those decisions, which were adopted in 1937…, [and latter]… In no circumstances. This is a tragedy also for communists, because there were communists among Crimean Tatars, who were also deported. This is a tragedy also for ordinary, normal people, who got into repressive machine. So, if you hint that I apologize, I never will be ready for it. Moreover, in one's time, I made something for understanding this situation and creating another situation beginning from 1987. Because, not many persons, including probably the audience know, what was then a blank wall not simply non-understanding, but opposition against a background of another stereotypes quite well formed, which gave, if you want, some hostility of relations, which Crimea and myself, including Crimean Tatars passed through, in order to have today that understanding, that we have. Currently, there is absolute understanding as kind neighbours, between people, who live in Crimea. Roman Skripyn: I specify nevertheless the questions. A history knows a lot of cases when, independently of ideology, one nation apologized to other. When nevertheless any ideology to apologize before society, that we did wrongly. I didn’t mean you personally. Leonid Hrach: What is your nationality ideologically? Roman Skripyn: I think this is not topical now. Leonid Hrach: Why not? If you are Ukrainian, I propose: you apologize on behalf of Ukrainian people before Crimean Tatars. And Refat Abdurakhmanovich says: why Ukrainian people? Roman Skripyn: Each nation has own steersman: our steersman is the President Leonid Kuchma. If Ukrainians apologize before anybody, it will be done by Leonid Kuchma. If Ukrainian communists have own steersman - this is Petro Symonenko, it is his to do, obviously, by Petro Symonenko. The question is very simple - it does not redeem one's fault that, who once was guilty? And than could come a certain peace. Refat Chubarov: Mr. Roman, I really want to say what happened with Crimean Tatar people, with another deported peoples, or ethnical minorities here there is no fault of any nation – this is really so. But, I again assert that we have everything only to develop Ukraine? We are to say very clearly: what happened in Ukraine yet 50-70 years ago. And in this plan, sometimes I say own impatient compatriots: “What do you want from Ukrainian communists? Did they apologize for those events in west Ukraine? Did anybody apologize for hunger in Ukraine? Did they apologize for those repressions in 1960-70s, for Marchenko, Stus, Hrihorenko, whom, we in period of Leonid Hrach, puted a monument, one says, illegally, because we didn’t receive permission, it took place 5 years ago? Did anybody apologize generally before Ukraine? That is, a society doesn’t understand for the present, what happened in those or other political regimes; we will circle and look for who is guilty before Crimean Tatars. This is guilty of those, who are guilty before people of Ukraine! The Communist regime.” Roman Skripyn: Perhaps, not because of this, but another ideology one would apologize. Leonid Hrach: Just a moment. I think that necessary to look at last 12 years of our life: what we made? More exact - how much one destroyed, how much people were humbled, how much people were thrown, in principle, on rubbish heap, and then to think, what will do yet. Currently, there are different opinions. Is it today a problem is who earlier came to this land? When there is very bad situation - in state, society, in social area, - let’s pull about each other, and call: “You apologize before me, and you apologize before other”, and so on. I say once more, including exaggeration on hunger, which up to now, only from the point of view, even from tribune of Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine, only to show anticommunism, antisovetism, giving nothing for people. But let’s stop! If we want to create, necessary to calm down society, give an opportunity for society, in order it itself has own opinions, which were imposed by neither Hrach, nor Chubarov, neither Petrov, nor Sidorov, and give it an access to archival materials. They are very interesting, and are not only as Refat Abdurakhmanovich read. To give an opportunity, in order for historians to study. Let them study. A society calms down. Our children draw a conclusion. And we need today to aspire to tolerance, peace in society, and the most main thing, to constructive labour. Refat Chubarov: And I again would agree with Leonid Ivanovich, if there were not those consequences. Recently, I met with Mr. Orest Kruglyak, who was a head of Work Group of government of Canada, which engaged in 1988 and adopted a state decision on rehabilitation of Canadian citizens - the [ethnical] Japanese. I studied the experience and understand what way is used by other governments. And when we say: let's all of us calm down. Ok, but there were 45 years of prohibition for return, there were no schools for 45 years, they were prohibited, the nation itself was prohibited, because there was no Crimean Tatar name, it was prohibited bey appropriate standard acts. Let’s start. I am for peace. But let’s begin at least from first steps. My parents were born in mountain village, its name Ayserez. Today this is “Mezhdurechye”. Neither “Tankovoye”, nor “Heroyskoye”. Let’s change names. There is a beautiful place, which is known to all world and history - “Karasubazar” today this is “Belohorsk”. There are hundreds Belohorks on map of Ukraine. Let’s restore. That is, I want, I want to calm down, in order Crimean Tatars calm down, but let’s take step by step. Not wait and not simply call. Let’s to remove those consequences, which we have, on our way to understanding. It is necessary to do it. Roman Skripyn: When we say about understanding, perhaps, here it is worth to talk about any one part of Ukrainian history; it is generally such complicated and necessary really to study it. Nevertheless to repent - this is a step of courage, perhaps. But, nobody had the courage to take this step up to now. Remind, that we today talk about day of memory of victims of deportation of Crimean Tatars, 59th anniversary. In our studio there are Refat Chubarov and Leonid Hrach. Call us please we wait for your calls by telephone 451-58-03 and 451-71-19. Radiolistener: Good evening, I have a question for guests. How, to your opinion, the present authorities of Crimea assists to solution of questions connected with return and resettlement of Crimean Tatars. Crimean autonomy in present state, as exists, do they need it or not in generally? To opinion of Hrach, is not this autonomy, which solves questions, rather solves Russian interests than Crimean Tatars and Ukrainians. Thank you. Leonid Hrach: Say, even under that census, which raises doubts, there are 8 million Russians – is this not a people of Ukraine? Or if we will treat so, for example, to those, who live in Zakarpattia, and practically today don’t know Ukrainian, being citizens of Ukraine, but Hungarian birth. No, such things. The autonomy is undoubtedly integral part of Ukraine. At last, due to adoption of the Constitution of the ARC five years ago, were regulated those questions, which disturbed constantly a geopolitical question. It was already come about. And this is future of Ukraine in such education, and from the point of view of form, power and relations which are. Secondly, the Autonomy has a territorial principle, the Autonomy for all, who live equally in Crimea. In no circumstances, to mark out one people against other. Secondly, as far as the Verkhovna Rada of Crimea can today, so it solves these questions. I would like to say that today we will very much talk about everything, on policy, ideology and so on. But we will not talk that there are today complicated problems of formerly deported people: as Crimean Tatars, as Germans, including Bulgarians, Greeks, and Armenians, which are not solved. This is their social resettlement, and this is a realization of the potential, which has any person, including people. This is using of them in society, or, otherwise, - unemployment and so on. In this direction, as Ukraine, as the Autohomous Republic of Crimea makes not much. By the way, I can give an example: some years ago, we adopted a decision, for the first time during post-soviet history, to allot 10-12 mln. UAH for resettlement of Crimean Tatars and tried to draw up an estimate of expenses on these funds, in order that they were expended with good purpose, this was a fight. This was a war. But and now, unfortunately, including state budget, I think that Refat Abdurakhmanovich support me, alas, has practically no money. And Crimean budget all the more reduced everything. Today, the main thing is to give accommodation for person, job, opportunity to children to study, for old people to receive pension, and to study as well. It is necessary to give everybody. Refat Chubarov: I want to answer very concretely to respected radiolistener. First, Crimean autonomy can do as much as it is able within its authority. But also I want to say: as Verkhovna Rada of Crimea in general, as separately Crimean politicians, they by virtue of their understanding of Crimean problem or problem of our recent past can either assist or prevent solution of those problems, which are really engaged in by the state. Nevertheless, I want to defend a little Zakarpattia. A week ago I visited Uzhhorod, it was my first visit, and this is a beatuful place. I met with Hungarian communities, they speak well Ukrainian. Roman Skripyn: Well and next question of radiolistener. Hallo, we hear you. Please. Radiolistener: Good evening. I have a question concerning responsibility, my question to Mr. Hrach. Leonid Ivanovich, the Communist Party in present time says about responsibility of authority, that authority is to be responsible. In Soviet period, the Communist Party was the basic force, art.6 of the Constitution. Everything that was good in Soviet period, the Communist Party says that due to its decisions, leading role and everything else. Concerning bad things, especially crimes, the Communist Party says: “No, we don’t try to recognize it”. At the same time, appear question: “If some time the Communist Party come to power, that it can act analogously, because it didn’t recognize its guilt. Answer please.” Roman Skripyn: Thank you for a question. Leonid Hrach: This is stereotyped philosophy, it is very widespread in generally. Here, if communists of present time come to power, they repeat everything, that took place. This is a stereotype, which was imposed. I would like to say again, that in any time, a question on responsibility of authority is exact. The authority always is to be responsible. Concerning period, which you mentioned "Soviet period" and so on, not, I personally, never said and say that everything was ideal. And today I said that Communist Party, which has no any attitude to adoption of decisions on deportation of Crimean Tatars, but today it was put into the position of responsibility for decision of its leader - in present case Stalin, including those associates, which were by the way up to Horbachev period. So, the matter concerns comprehension, understanding to draw a conclusion: if the Communist Party comes to power, that nothing similar and in bad dream took place. But it is not mean, that I deny everything that took place once. Refat Chubarov: I also don’t look for concrete person, particularly, who live today, and who would be responsible for actions of authorities. But I want to say all the same: all decisions, which were adopted in our state, especially, in after deportation [period], and not only concerning Crimean Tatars, each of these decisions began from CC Communist Party, and than was duplicated by Soviet power. When one time Russian woman in Crimea said me: “Refat, we understand, why you don’t like Soviet power, because it treated badly with you”, I answered: “Why you think that they began from us? They began from Russians, from Russian believers. And this was same power, which you defend.” And than she thought…I don’t know she agreed with me, but it took place. Beginning from 1918, and from 1920-21s, Tatars were latter. But this was Communists… Leonid Hrach: I would like again to ask Refat Abdurakhmanovich: “Let’s talk how to solve present problems”. I want again to remind that you were a member of Communist Party up to 1990. Refat Chubarov: I left this party, when it was leading. From that moment, when I got in Kreml… I answer you in Russian, Leonid Ivanovich… When I saw how they solve these problems, I discarded [Party-membership card] and said: “I will be not in this Party”. Leonid Hrach: You are just a little younger 19442 and you knew that your people was deported, why you wrote an application in Communist Party and became a member? Let’s finish this subject, I want to talk about problem, and not be engaged in ideological investigation… Refat Chubarov: I would like to ask Roman, if you will have such opportunity, and you invite me one day namely on this subject - “why I was a member of Communist Party” - I think about it with great pleasure… Roman Skripyn: I remind that in our studio are Refat Chubarov, people’s deputy of bloc “Nasha Ukraina”, deputy head of the Mejlis of the Crimean Tatar people and Leonid Hrach, people’s deputy of faction of Communist Party of Ukraine, member of Committee on struggle against organized criminality and corruption, first secretary of Crimean Republican Committee of Communist Party of Ukraine, their dialogue you heard. We have again radiolistener, please, speak. Radiolistener: Good evening. I have a question for Mr. Chubarov. Is it possible to try this ideology and those fighters, who eliminated the Ukrainians and now finish off? I could appear in court, as in 1883 communist eliminated me and my family and small children, for whom I was single bread-winner. And suggest to “Mr. Demagogue” that necessary to publicly recant, and stop this dirt to pour out in air, because…, Party members rule and finish that, which was not finished Roman Skripyn: Your question is understandable. I can only to note that we discussed this subject very detailed. Refat Chubarov: I don’t mean now a court. I am not an adherent of punishment, [if] anybody would like to show me as such person. But I think that in our state, as in some other states of post-Soviet camp, would to have the appropriate laws, which could simply guarantee a prevention of that happened. To my opinion, this is the main thing. Roman Skripyn: I wouldn’t like come back to that we told today about, because we discussed already this subject. Leonid Hrach: I can say one thing: there is such proverb in Odessa, concerning those who wish, here radiolistener, who wanted - to judge communists, communist ideology. Not wait! Roman Skripyn: We respect our radiolisteners, as well as any ideology. I remind that you can call by telephone 451-58-03 and 451-71-19. We talk today about day of memory of victims of deportations, namely, Crimean Tatars. And I would like already to go on to the present. As I think that Tatars have a lot of problems in Crimea, perhaps, their life is not sweet. I already asked that is there such subject, as Crimean Tatar question, and I would like to hear in aspect of present Crimea, are there such questions and where are critical moments in this question. Refat Chubarov: If it is possible, I begin to answer on this question. In any measure, Leonid Hrach already began to talk about present problems. If to summarize all problems, which Crimean Tatars have today are returning to Crimea, they can be divided conditionally on such big groups: socioeconomic questions and questions connected with political-legal providing of their integration into Ukrainian society, concerning their further development. Though we are to recognize that nevertheless for 12 years there are positive moments, and we are to note them, but at the same time there are problems concerning socioeconomic resettlement of those Tatars, who are returning to Crimea. And we understand what are the reasons for these problems, but there are also such problems, which as I said, concerning necessity of adoption of basic law, which could liquidate the consequences of deportation and compulsory keeping in places of deportation for decades. This is a problem, and about it we told yet 3 years [ago], 20 April 2000, when were held the parliamentary hearings, but, unfortunately, those drafts, which were developed did not reach sessional hall. There are very much politicians, who have other opinions concerning solution of problems of Crimean Tatars in Ukraine. Roman Skripyn: I would to hear and you. Leonid Hrach: Firstly, an overwhelming majority of people live in heavy conditions as in Ukraine, as in Crimea. At the same time, Crimean Tatars, Armenians, Bulgarians and Greeks, who suffered deportation, live in very heavy conditions. The conditions are heavy. People returned to new place, the people made themselves at home from peg and many of them and now remained by peg. So, the main thing, by the way, is political, to my opinion. It is necessary to develop all resources - political, state, for solution of socioeconomic problems, but not for political surveys, who is to apologize, who owe and so on. One of examples of present power: land sharing. Was it really not known, before adoption of this decision including Decrees and so on some years ago, that a part of Crimean Tatars already returned? It was known! Say me, for what here Stalin? When one began to raise a question from 1994 that Crimean Tatars pretend, on base of appropriateness, on land shares as the others, they reserved nothing for them? But, they reserved today, Roman, such 'nag", which we will extract for decades. This is simply as example. Roman Skripyn: Namely, Stalin reserved nag of collective farms for us, and land sharing – is already a consequence. Leonid Hrach: Let’s don’t talk about collective farms. We will yet cry for collective farms, under opinion that there is no any controllability and so on. Roman Skripyn: One wouldn’t cry, frankly speaking. Leonid Hrach: In this year, if they don’t gather bread - we will cry… Roman Skripyn: Mr. Leonid, for all that we have to be interrupted, we have a radiolistener. We like our audience. Radiolistener: Good evening. I have a question for guests. We know that, for example, a lot of Germans return in Germany from former Soviet Union, they pass a separate procedure on return. Why one didn’t develop such procedure in present Ukraine, then one could avoid a lot of these problems. That is the Crimean Tatars, as I understand, returned as anybody wanted. In this connection, appear a lot of problems with pensions, and living. That is, I think, that is guilty of present authority, or one says yet in period of Kravchuk, that Tatars returned so chaotically in Crimea. Refat Chubarov: I can say very briefly, because this is big questions. You know Crimean Tatars after deportation were some times deceived by Soviet power: when they were promised to return. Namely, it was said that by parts. It was in 1968. But then they closed doors for return and Crimean Tatars began mass return not in first years of formation of Ukraine, but in last years of existence of USSR. In that period the authority couldn’t make something, but Crimean Tatars already understood: or thy used this chance for return or not, or the authority latter to stop again. I want say that today we have documents, which were developed in period of Horbachev, when again the matter concerned quota return in steppe regions, settlements, where necessary man power. Were we really able? We felt this attitude of power - and we really not waited that a power will return us, because it never returned us. Roman Skripyn: Now, may be, Mr. Leonid we come back to… Leonid Hrach: By the way, and in context of same question which was asked by listener. The question is very complicated. One shouldn’t to give a hostile reception to this question. What did the matter concern? And Refat Abdurakhmanovich said now that there were really such decisions! Movement of such number of people, placement of industrial potential… Refat Chubarov (interrupted): In 1944 for one day!... Leonid Hrach: But this is already meeting… Currently, by the way, appeared such problems as so-called period of self-acquisition, where developed neither city… Refat Chubarov (again interrupted): Self- restitution! “Self-acquisition” - this is those, who expelled! Leonid Hrach: Well, Refat Abdurakhmanovich. For the time present neither Ukrainian, nor Russian from Kyiv did not come from somewhere or anywhere, and didn’t take something and where he wanted… Refat Chubarov: What does it mean, - didn’t take? Leonid Hrach: Well, a land and built on it. There is a procedure. There is a question, that really, including in context of return to Germany. Tell me, do they not study a social aspect of this problem? Where go, and where will live a person, where he will be provided for social infrastructure, there one doesn’t go to same place. In this sense, appeared second problem, this is very complicated and sensitive issue, which is not engaged now by authority. I gave two problems, you interrupted me: First - land sharing. Second - resettlement. The resettlement is a big problem. At the same time, there are problems of opposition on land, in particular, concerning South coast and so on. For example, Sudak’s region there is opposition between one part and other and so on. And this is everything concerning inter-ethnic area. So, this is complicated questions, which are now in real life. Refat Chubarov: Nevertheless, I didn’t understand well - what we compare? Ethnical Germans return to their historical Motherland, from which they were never deported by anybody. And they return, because, in the law of Germany, and I want to stress it, are insurance arrangements of return of ethnical Germans, who were scattered all over the world. Concerning Crimean Tatars, and in last years of existence of USSR, there were no laws, which could guarantee a return. Unfortunately, and now except good will of state, there are no laws, which would guarantee it. This is really a problem, and I would like that the listener knows about it. Roman Skripyn: Nevertheless, I would like to come back to land issue. Let’s leave a culture of communication with our audience and right of presenter. Nevertheless, land issue. This is very important, in Crimea will it be solved or not, what are ways of solution, because those people, who already settled on that land, they will hardly be removed by bulldozers. Refat Chubarov: Our legislation on land reform is very contradictory, and let’s say so, under our legislation one may do whatever one likes, because it provides for it. I mean concerning land. One can re-share, if people will agree. But will agree people? I think, not. One can give, if local authorities show good will. One can give to some, for example: teachers, doctors, and not give to deportees, though they also were discharged. One can give nobody in general, and give only those farmers, who were invited [from the outside]. Roman Skripyn: Mr. Refat, a position is understandable. We have a radiolistener. Radiolistener: Good evening. I have a question for Refat Chubarov. You say that there are no laws in Ukraine. I can agree with it, because they are in Ukraine, certainly, there is no separate law “On Crimean Tatars”. But there is the law “On emigration”. That is, Crimean Tatars, who would return from any states, are emigrants - actually and de jure. They are to follow the law “On emigration”. And if arrived in Ukraine without permission, they are to be deported today. Because they violate… Refat Chubarov: I don’t want to discuss with You, I can say only one thing, if you have an opportunity, read the law “On emigration”. And if you want to know about obligations of state before deported peoples in general, that I can propose you to familiarize oneself with Bishkek Agreement, which was signed and ratified by Ukraine. In which the matter concerns that states, which signed the Bishkek Agreement and ratified, provide, I again stress, not emigration, but the return of deported people, dear radiolistener. God grant that neither you, nor your relatives ever have such problems, which have Crimean Tatars, or had yesterday. Roman Skripyn: I remind that you hear evening informational program, joint project of “Public radio” and radio “Kontinent”. We talk today about 59th anniversary of deportation of Crimean Tatars. You can call us, we have only 10 minutes: by telephones 451-58-03 and 451-71-19. And here I would like in this aspect to remember on inter-ethnic relations of Ukrainians, Russians and Crimean Tatars. Is there any specificity? Leonid Hrach: I think no, among people - no, I repeat. But the political circles always try to introduce it. Moreover, not solving certain problems, first of all, having such character, as the linguistic problem. In present case it concerns Russian language, which unites all, which everyone living today in Ukraine can speak. Including, a development of languages of peoples, who live on separate territories - in present case, the Autonomous Republic of Crimea, Crimean Tatar and so on. This is everything, which is introduced or impeded by politicians, in order to not solve it. If there are now certain faults, if you want, the nags in inter-ethnic relations, so they, I stress again, are at level of state, level of parliament and level of state policy, but they are no among people living here in Ukraine. Roman Skripyn: Mr. Refat, are there problems? Refat Chubarov: I can say that I agree and not. And I repeat it very often, because I am sure of it: any deep reasons in Crimean society, now I say about peninsula, in order to conflict different ethnoses of Crimea, to my opinion, - no. There are not simply such reasons. But you know that ethnical composition, which is today, and the main thing, how it was formed in period after deportation, well actually, one says so, it forms by any way an appropriate attitude to some problems. Well, one says, where will be Crimea: in composition of Ukraine or Russia? There is a big group of people, who have other opinion, than we have in this studio. Concerning languages and using an order of these languages in Crimea. Some say that one language is to bey predominant and other ones only for study. Others say, let will be predominant one language, or three ones. That is there is difference in approaches. But the main thins is, and I can agree with it: if would agree leading politicians, first of all - Crimean and voluntary heads of many Crimean organizations in these questions, to my opinion, that people would adopt such decisions, which be developed by present Crimean politicians. Roman Skripyn: Nevertheless, a human civilization knows ways for exit, one says, out of critical situations - this is interpenetration of cultures and mutual understanding of cultures. Thus, became tradition, as Mr. Leonid remembered, in Crimea and generally in post-Soviet area all know Russian. It is understandable from the point of view of historical realities, or historical memory. But, perhaps does whether facilitate a situation of wish of Russians of Crimea to learn language of those, who live close by them in autonomy, or culture of those people, who live close by them, those nationalities? Perhaps this would show an attention of Russians to Crimean Tatars, and to Ukraine, and on the contrary. Leonid Hrach: Certainly, without doubts. But, first of all, if we say in context of Crimea, that necessary to look at main, I mean under quantitative expression, population living in Crimea - 65% Russians.3 It means, that necessary first of all to respect them, if we want that they respected us. I talk about present policy. Refat Chubarov: Leonid Ivanovich, I would like a little to continue this opinion, you know it frightens me very often. There, where there are such inter-ethnic relations, especially in such very sensitive subjects as language, religion, if it connects with difference in ethnicity. There, where there are other cultural aspects, very important that we understand that here are not to bey quantitative parameters. If there is any group, which can create only one school in Crimea and send there only 20 children, that we are to support this school. I finish and want to say that unfortunately, all of such discussions, which give among politicians, they are at such [low] level, [also and there] where work specialists. I engage last 5-6 years in [questions] opening of schools with Crimean Tatar language teaching, and believe me, there are here very much problems, first of all, from the hand not of parents, but teachers. Because, they don’t see themselves in those new realities, when are to be opened Ukrainian schools, or schools with Crimean Tatar language teaching. Here there are a lot of problems. Roman Skripyn: May be, this subjective opinion, nevertheless, I say, as in Kyiv I have occasion to meet very often Crimean Tatars, who study here, who may be, found themselves, in order to live here, and you know I had no occasion to meet any Crimean Tatar, who didn’t know Ukrainian. But, I have occasion to meet very many Russians, who don’t know Ukrainian and not want to know it. May be, this is subjective attitude, but may be, this is really our everyday realities. But, let’s come back to Crimea. Nevertheless, did take certain steps for improvement of inter-ethnic relations and mutual understanding of nations in Crimea. You Mr. Leonid as ex-head of Verkhovna Rada of Crimea are to know about it. Leonid Hrach: That is due to the beginning from 1987 that the Crimean leadership understood, that a problem, which was behind seven seals, became today serious and it was necessary to solve it. It was very hard to understand it, but understood. Due to it, that a principle of internationalism, mutual respect, and principle not to result to conflict between peoples, and solve it nevertheless by political methods. There was a hard situation in this area for these 12 years in Crimea, and having all cataclysms, nevertheless, we solved normally questions. Roman Skripyn: Thank you Mr. Leonid. I can say only that we have very small time, and would like to hear from you an answer for two questions. From you, Mr. Refat. Why Crimean Tatars always unite only with national democratic forces, but by one sentence. Refat Chubarov: Namely, because in our struggle for decades we had support only among those, who also fought for freedom of own peoples. We fought against one regime. That is all. Roman Skripyn: It is understandable. And question for Mr. Leonid Hrach, which doesn’t concern subject of present program. For me as journalist it is interesting - you nevertheless will be a candidate for president, you spoke about it in the last year? Leonid Hrach: Well, if this doesn’t concern subject, I will not answer. Roman Skripyn: You don’t want. We can sum up. It is not a pity, or fortunately, we didn’t settle a subject, obviously the theme is very big, and we touched only certain parts. It is a pity that we didn’t hear a lot of answers on many questions. It is a pity that in this state anybody cannot break own certain ambitions, cannot apologize before others, and others cannot recognize own mistakes. I remind that today we spoke about mournful anniversary, which now hammers in hearts of many of our compatriots - 59 anniversary of deportation of Crimean Tatars. Today we had in studio Refat Chubarov - people’s deputy from bloc “Our Ukraine”, deputy head of Mejlis of the Crimean Tatar people and Leonid Hrach - people’s deputy of faction of Communist Party of Ukraine. I can say only that Leonid Hrach was once a head of Verkhovna Rada of Crimea. You will hear us next Wednesday. Thank you for attention. 1 Leonid Hrach was born in 1948, it means yet in period of Stalin. - Ed. 2 Refat Chubarov was born in 1957. - Ed. 3 According to results of All-Ukrainian population census of 2001, the Russians are 58, 5% in the ARC - Ed. |
